And I think that’s a good starting point. The thing is that if we try to have that argument, and I hope that we are, although, it’s difficult. Job Title. Kim Goodwin was asked to help some colleagues tell if they were being helpful or condescending. Is this actually of benefit to the population that we’re talking about? We start with design systems, but move on to critiquing Maslow’s pyramid, the ethics of digital the Nuremberg Code, and independent review boards, we have a brief evaluation of capitalism and then finishing strong with the two not one things you need to be measuring. Kim Goodwin closed UX Camp: Home Edition with the keynote “Designing Better Decisions” Enjoy! We claim user experience broadly, but we don’t really cover that ground. Recently she began serving as VP of Product and User Experience at PatientsLikeMe, a medical research platform and a social and decision … ... It’s an especially good opportunity to make sure the senior people stay involved at key decision points. Gerry: Yes, I totally agree. It’s just one flavour. Kim: It’s probably easiest to find me on Twitter @kimgoodwin. James Royal-Lawson I mean, is there a degree of transparency with it as well, or.. James Royal-Lawson I was just thinking about review boards, and they would, would we would we want any level of transparency with that process? The first step is that you have to break that down and user interviews actually give you some great fodder for breaking down what patients first means. You know, let’s let’s have more companies take that stance. I think in some cases, designers are complicit in bad decisions, right. Yeah. Another question from the Netherlands, and it’s Neil Cortson, Neil is a service designer in Koos, I was wandering if she could talk about the influence of decision frameworks and the adoption or maturity of design within the organisation, is there a link and how do we go about it? People rightly criticize Maslow as being very western and individualist, which it is, but Maslow pauses to that: Until you have needs around food and shelter and safety and things like that met, you’re not going to self-actualise and meet your full potential as a human. That’s what they’re… like you said, they’re measuring what they value and what they value is not sometimes what the teams align to. The thing we want to accomplish, right. Ariel Waldman 'Hacking Science for Collaboration' 08/22/2019. If a company tells you: People first is their value, do they measure that in any meaningful way? If you’re an insider, you may already have a good idea who the influential stakeholders are. Yeah. How are you doing that? KIM GOODWIN | @kimgoodwin Independent ( San Francisco, CA ) Beyond Design Systems: Decision Systems k Sketchnotes Design Strategy } 5:30 PM Networking time: CANUX HAPPY HOUR } 6:30 PM Dinner / Free time: ON YOUR OWN } 9:00 PM Party time: OAG (Ottawa Art Gallery) ( 10 Daly Avenue (Daly Avenue Entrance)) Let’s kick off, tell us a little bit about yourself and where you are and what you do. Kim: Well, then I think we need to look at how the decisions get made, and what are the criteria we use to value our decisions. Why don’t we learn from others who’ve gone before, right? One of the things that if you study organisational change, you’ll find is true is, people don’t actually know what to do with change messages, unless they come from their immediate manager, or at most, their managers’ manager. Kim: That’s where I think we as designers and product folks and other people who make things have to look at the organisation and say, well, no organisation is perfect at adhering to its values, because values are usually aspirational. If you want to understand the impact you’re having on somebody’s life, you have to ask them. Justice Goodwin Liu and Ann O’Leary, in happier times — with Governor Jerry Brown. James Royal-Lawson You have to keep keep that, Oh, yeah. Per Axbom Essentially, we’re not the first industry who has ethical dilemma SN concerns? Honestly, do you know how when you’re at a party or something and people say, “What do you do for a living?”. But yeah, practice, we’ve still got the fact that now how do you get how do you include the lower end of society, maybe the less wealthy society? View Kim Goodwin’s profile on LinkedIn, the world's largest professional community. Right. We’re over optimising to the profit metric. Kim: Thank you so much for having me. Because I think in house, even when you’re a consultant working with a client, it’s very easy to sort of delude yourself into thinking that something that’s about your needs is really serving user needs. Thank you. We don’t have to say, Hey, we need to rethink capitalism. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetur adipiscing elit. Once they get it, they get it. But also you can just just mapping it out, shows people, okay, so we won’t choose the one that harms the least. The problem is, there are lots of decisions that are out of their hands, that are getting made. We are your hosts, James Royal-Lawson and Per Axbom. Listen to UX Podcast on Spotify. I help them make products and services that don’t suck for humans. Design hasn’t necessarily changed that much - we’re using different tools nowadays, but the underlying processes are very similar to what was being done in the 90’s. It allows you to work quicker, work faster, but my thing is, it can also allow you to work quicker and faster in the wrong direction. It’s one of the organisations that I particularly hone-in on probably too much unfairly. 19:34. But even before that, you must know why you’re collecting data. It’s not perfect, but we don’t have to start everything from scratch. I remember, I used to work at My Space back in the day, whenever Facebook came along, I completely bought into the Zuckerberg spiel of making the world a better and more connected place. Kim Goodwin is the bestselling author of Designing for the Digital Age. I think if we talk about user experience design, back when I started, interaction design was sort of the new sexy term because we wanted to not be thought of as just interface design and deeper and richer. Kim: I think that’s where decision systems play a role, right, can we frame what we mean by human centred. Buy the book 'How to create human-centered products and services' Follow Kim Goodwin on Twitter Watch Kims talk at ILA18 Have feedback on this episode? Talking Shop - The HCD Network Community Updates 08/20/2019. Location. In some ways, I felt more disconnected. I’ve got one last question. Parts of design are something anyone can do. I think that’s what organisations are doing now. So you’ve just moved a lot of people who were able before to do something, and now they’re not able to do it. Kim: Let’s consider the case of YouTube for a second. The way that I frame it is, until we figure out how we can measure the things that we value, we’re going to overvalue what’s easy to measure. And yet…design systems only address the details. James Royal-Lawson I think I think we actually had similar kind of reflection, when we talked to her last in Episode 192. If you are developing a drug, there’s ways that you can scientifically ask people questions about the impact of it, that are viewed as medical evidence, and that actually hold weight scientifically. Kim Goodwin Well, that’s an interesting question, right. Material Design in the case of Google or I think was the image analysis algorithm? Kim Goodwin is the author of the bestselling book, Designing for the Digital Age. Kim, thank you so much for joining us today. Lots of healthcare, mostly consulting, definitely some inhouse, as well. That sort of thing, then the design system is only going to be as good as the ethics and guidelines that we build into that algorithm, right? Kim: Let’s see, I’ve been in the design and products space for 20 plus years. But you opened your talk today with our design systems the best investment? And I have no illusions that designers are going to necessarily solve that on our own. Just as design systems do for those front-end choices. View Kim-Maree Goodwin’s profile on LinkedIn, the world’s largest professional community. If you don’t already. Because, hey, we don’t really do that stuff. Gerry: Kim, I want to ask you a question about the role of metrics and goals and values. When [values are] inconsistently followed, point it out (if safe); challenge perceived barriers. One is, if the team generating the concepts is not that diverse, then you’re going to have a bunch of flaws built in from the outset, and a bunch of privileged assumptions based on you know, education, income, gender, all sorts of things. Okay, maybe. Yeah, a little bit. In the end, I just say I’m a designer, which maybe I’ll stop doing from now on, and take your advice. I think that it relates much more closely to how well does the organisation already align to its own values. Diam dui ut ut purus aenean volutpat. Yeah, I mean, I have often said that, you know, things like a business model, or pricing decisions or policies, those are design decisions, in a way, if you look at designers, the thing that creates the user experience, but I think we just confuse ourselves and other people when we think of all of that as design. We need our tools to accomplish the basics. In real life, the way that I make decisions is, I say, “I would like to optimise my fitness without sacrificing certain other things too much.” We don’t have that balance concept in the way that we use metrics most of the time in business. If not, it’s not a real value, it’s just marketing. I say that semi-jokingly, but semi-seriously, like, some people were like, “I just want to know what she’s up to”, versus, “Is she going to write another book?” That’s the first question, are you going to write another book? But yeah, some part of making tech more humane is going to be dependent on governments, just as companies are not going to do this on their own. Yeah. Kim Goodwin, bestselling author of Designing for the Digital Age, has more than 20 years of both consulting and in-house UX experience. Kim: Two things. Lots of people criticise design thinking as making it seem like design is easy and something anyone can do, which guess what? Please subscribe to the show. And so sometimes we are going to make values based decisions that reduce our profitability, and investors need to be aware of that risk. And we’ve gone global. Listen to UX Podcast on Spotify. Again, I’m picking questions out here like out of a hat. Design systems are often a good investment, but do they give the highest rate of return?No says Kim, changing how we make decisions gives more. And people were making really extensive use of personas. How do we put some checks and balances in there? Well, well, it helps users. Kim: The things that we value are the things that we measure. I think that they are very concrete, they give you gains in efficiency, that if you’re an organisation that values efficiency, not all do, is appealing. Graduating with honors from the University of San Francisco, Dr. Goodwin has a BS majoring in biology with a minor in psychology. This is the problem, a lot of teams, a lot of organisations will drive to a single business metric, so take social media for example, that engagement number, the more you get people coming back, the more ads you can put in front of them, the more that drives your revenue, but the problem is, think about how you make decisions in real life, do you ever optimise to a single metric in life? Daniel Bertram, weed superintendent for Lemhi County, ID has provided plant location data and advises on development of the decision tool. Kim: Yes, most people can’t answer that one in my experience. My product view in your background says, no. James Royal-Lawson The obvious one, is the thing that you’re actually trying to achieve. What I’m about is, can we get organisations to make more human decisions at every level across every discipline? How do you get them to understand the the benefit of investing that few dollars, maybe they have over – if they have any dollars in a company. A book that if you haven’t picked a copy up of, it’s still really relevant today, ten years later. Other people might say, I think our user experience is still fine. I caught up with one of my favourite authors and design researchers recently, Kim Goodwin. Kim: It’s overdue, I definitely need to do that. It makes decisions simpler. It’s a bit of a heavy topic, right. It was a really fantastic talk and I really enjoyed it. Per Axbom for me that ties well back to what she was saying in the beginning of the interview about design systems, and what are we spending our time on? Designing how we design @KimGoodwin - UX Camp 5, Ottawa 2014 © 2014 istockphoto organization’s decision-making values YOUR values And those are probably conversations most of us can have. And when you did that, I was like, Oh, no, what she doing! We want to push the boundaries of how user experience … And those Review Boards consist of diverse interests, right? That’s behavioural intervention to it just happens to be beneficial behavioural intervention. Kim: Yes. I think her reasoning around doing one thing at the expense of another we’re over optimising for the profit metric, even like over optimising for one thing and not finding a balance. We’ve just got time for one more. There’s no room for a soul in capitalism, as it’s currently conceived in the world. How did you decide what to even build? Whereas an independent review board will look at things and say, Well, okay, I see your intent here, I see why this is good and useful. Can we articulate values as team-level principles and can we put up pairs of metrics, so that we’re measuring the impact of our decisions? It’s like, but people have been thinking about these things for years, and they’re still trying to figure them out. Kim did say Facebook’s, for example, Facebook’s business model is the one single thing that impacts the user experience of users the most. I think there are a couple of approaches that I find really useful. And I feel like we have to find a way to introduce that balance in our work, too. Who made that decision and how? Diam sed sit quisque facilisi luctus feugiat. Gerry: Yes, or tell me when you decided not to build something, is another way of saying that. I think I said 193 and beginning, it’s 192. If you look at, say, some of the fitness trackers and so on, that are helping people change habits to be healthier. Kim Goodwin is a best selling author and has 20+ years of consulting and in-house UX experience. if you will. James Royal-Lawson And as a suggestion of what to listen to next, apart from Episode 192, and, and even the episode The first time we talked to Kim, which god what number’s that, that was I was even. Just what I when I talk about these things, I usually tell people to have, like, have every quarter, have a meeting around these things, talk about them, make them top of mind, because you need at least to have some sort of routine in talking about these issues, about harming people about storing their data about manipulation. Kim Goodwin is the author of the bestselling book, Designing for the Digital Age. James Royal-Lawson see you on the other side. What used to be a one-direction decision-making process has evolved into more complex interactive experiences as technologies have changed. How do we then accredit people, as designers, so they can be part of an independent review board, so they can then review design decisions, things that we’re doing in a way that’s that’s safe in a way that’s good, healthy, and successful. Then sometimes you have executive attention. Who cares? We do kind of like spend 10 more minutes on that thing, rather than that thing, maybe isn’t noticeable. In the in the medical world, medical research world, we were quite a long way off that kind of thing, if it’s desirable, even to have a similar Review Board for for design, digital work or design work. I certainly don’t. User experience as a concept makes sense, I think as a discipline, it’s a little bit silly as a distinction. I think anybody who is collecting user data, collecting human data, I guess I should correct myself, and anybody who’s trying to manipulate behaviour, I think we need to put all that in front of an independent review board. There’s a bit of aesthetic improvement that users appreciate. James Royal-Lawson Yeah, we’re we’re doing, effectively doing medical trials on the world population. Kim Goodwin: Beyond Design Systems: Decision Systems. Are they being manipulated in a way that makes Uber more money and less money? That’s ridiculous. Kim: Yes, I think it does, I think the fundamentals in it are still accurate. And so I think there’s some truth to that. In past encounters, I’ve noticed Kim focusing a fair bit on Team dynamics and building team and organisational culture. Okay, hi everybody, thanks for hanging in there on the late on a Saturday afternoon or … And she’s, of course, also aware that it’s not going to happen overnight. To my mind, if I were going to do a job interview in an organisation, for example, one of the questions I would ask is about how decisions get made. And there are some details about your drug development process that would be really problematic if they got out into the world. And another thing we mentioned, you mentioned was the need for accreditation? And I think that when you have say, young tech savvy people designing all these systems, yeah, there’s a certain assumption that there’s a level of literacy and comfort. Lots of CEOs would get fired for doing that in existing public companies. But the level of effort I see go into some design systems, I think, Wow, that’s a lot of time to spend obsessing over your own tools. I mean, I remember one consultant, he actually built persona living rooms at one of their clients and things like this. Now, we acknowledge how design systems are excellent tools to help organisations create, but they’re lacking the critical piece of self-awareness, where they can still obviously be used to create products and services that harm. So some of these things, I think, are very avoidable. And in real life, we never optimise to only one thing. James Royal-Lawson The first time, that was 93 back in 2015. It’s the Nuremberg Code actually works pretty well. Kim Goodwin Yeah. Frankly, I think are a model that I think ought to be regulated into how we work. Pretium est ipsum dictum lectus mauris netus. Like, that Gerry fella, he just keeps on throwing massive questions to me, expecting me to answer them.
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